The European: It has been three months since the beginning of the Egyptian revolution. Walking through Tahrir Square today, what changes are most striking to you?
El Saadawi: Many things have changed. Millions of men, women and children have been in the streets, even before January 25. Since then, the revolution has gained momentum. People marched from Aswan to Alexandra and Suez. The pressure from the united people of Egypt forced Mubarak to resign, and they have succeeded in removing many of the heads of the previous regime. People in power were arrested, they are imprisoned now – including the leaders of Mubarak’s party, his two sons and the former president himself. The minister of media and the minister of culture were removed. We are hoping for a new culture, for a media that will not lie to the people of Egypt. We have re-established the Egyptian Women Union to include women in the political process. We should be included in all committees. In this short transitionary period, it is okay to have 25 percent women. But we are 50 percent of the population, so eventually we have to gain equal representation. Nobody had dared to dream that such things would be possible.

The European: When will this revolutionary excitement become replaced by the mundane tasks of rebuilding the country?
El Saadawi: We are not satisfied. We are awaiting the trial of Mubarak and his two sons. We ask that his wife is put on trial as well. She participated in the regime, she oversaw culture, media and development. The members of the old guard must stand for their actions.

The European: Others argue that the focus must not be on reconciliation and institution-building. Why are these trials so important?
El Saadawi: Why do we have the law if we don’t use it fairly? Why do we punish poor people and women, but not those in power? They too must be held accountable. Thousands were killed or injured during the revolution, billions of dollars were squandered by corruption. We cannot let the old guard just go home. Trials are not the only thing, but they are part of our larger struggle for justice. When we marched in Tahrir Square, we demanded “Justice, Freedom, and Dignity”. We must realize these aspirations.

The European: Mubarak had close ties to the army, many of his close confidants came from the ranks of the military. Is the military council seen as a legitimate transitionary power?
El Saadawi: The military is protecting the revolution. The army has a very good history in Egypt, they stood up against Mubarak and refused to shoot the protesters. They protected us from the gangs of thugs that were roaming the streets of Cairo. Of course there was some reluctance from the higher echelons of the military leadership. They were not always willing to prosecute members of the old regime. We have to wait and see what will happen. Our concrete demands are that all trials must be public and fair, so the nation can bear witness. These are not ordinary trials, they are political and economic trials. We have lived under a state of emergency for the past few decades, and the regime has used that to justify crimes against its own population. The perpetrators must be punished before the eyes of the nation.

The European: 70 percent of Egyptians voted in favor of constitutional amendments that would reform – but not abolish – the old constitution. Do you see the vote as a sign of change, or as a sign of continuity?
El Saadawi: We must have a very broad popular committee to change the constitution according to the spirit of the revolution. We are not satisfied with cosmetic reform.

The European: I want to ask you about an old quote. You have said that “to be creative, you have to be dissident.” Can you elaborate on that?
El Saadawi: I have taught that idea for twenty years. When the law is unjust, we have to break it. We must rise against corruption and injustice. I expect that all nations will embrace this dissident spirit. When you are creative, you are following your conscience. You listen to your true self. And your true self cannot tolerate a situation where power tolerates justice. So dissidence is always a question of spiritual self-reflection.

The European: What do you mean by “the spirit of the revolution”? A lot of Egyptians seem to talk about political change in very emotional, psychological terms, in terms of self-worth…
El Saadawi: I am a psychiatrist and a doctor. I don’t believe that you can distinguish between the psychological, the political and the economic realm. They are bound together in a very holistic way. What we need is economic revolution – 50 percent of Egyptians are living below the poverty line. And that revolution will have very direct political and psychological ramifications. We need a new culture of creativity, we need new laws that abolish the patriarchic nature of the family courts, we need a secular society based on the equality of religions and sexes.

The European: What role has religion played in the revolution?
El Saadawi: The revolution was completely secular. Of course, certain religious groups like the Muslim Brotherhood participate in the revolution. But so do many other groups: the youth, the socialists, the feminists, the frustrated poor. The whole nation marched in the streets if Egypt, including Muslims and Christians. When bullets fly, these divisions do not matter. We must not be divided by them now either.

The European: You have written that “all women are prostitutes of one kind or another”. What effect has the revolution had on the gender dynamics in Egyptian society?
El Saadawi: In Tahrir Square, the nation was united. Millions slept alongside each other, men and women. Not a single women was harassed, not a single church was burned. The spirit of the revolution must continue; the relationships between men and women, between Christians and Muslims, between the rich and the poor must be changed drastically.

The European: In the past weeks, harassment has returned, there have been some clashes between Koptic Christians and Muslims. Is that “revolutionary spirit” something that will last?
El Saadawi: It is a lasting thing. Women and churches were attacked by the police and the regime. The gangs of Mubarak were used to sow the seeds of conflict between religions and between poor and rich. So we have to ask who is trying to highjack the revolution. I am also critical of the neo-colonial powers in the US, in Europe, in Israel. They have joined hands with the regimes in Egypt and other Arab countries.

The European: Many countries from the West have embraced the idea that the Egyptian people should be free to decide the fate of their country.
El Saadawi: Egypt lost its economic independence with Sadat. The Open Door Policy has led to an economic dependence on the United States. A new Egypt must be economically independent. We must not be reliant on business interests from inside or outside the country.

The European: Who are these alleged counter-revolutionary powers?
El Saadawi: The counter-revolution comes from Mubaraks allies within the country and around the world: the neo-colonial powers – in the US, in Europe, in Israel, but also in Arab countries like Saudi-Arabia. We oppose Gaddafi, but we also oppose NATO intervention in Libya.

The European: What other policy do you propose in cases like Libya? Should the West pursue a policy of strict non-interference?
El Saadawi: I say that the Egyptian revolution was led by the people of Egypt without outside interference. We did not ask NATO or Israel for assistance, we did our work. That is what every country should do. What would the West say if Egypt sent its military to Wisconsin, to help the people of Wisconsin who have risen against inequality, against the anti-labor policies of their governor? I am categorically opposed to interference by one country in the internal matters of another country.

The European: The Libyan rebels specifically asked for foreign assistance…
El Saadawi: Libya is a very complex situation, and we don’t know enough about the chain of events there. I have not been to Benghazi, and I don’t believe the media reports from there. The media is full of lies. I have been in Tahrir Square, that is why I can judge. I know that the revolution was genuinely popular because I have seen it with my own eyes. There are many question-marks about the effect of the NATO bombing campaign. Some rebels say that NATO is not doing anything, others say that NATO is bombing civilians. What am I to believe? Because of this uncertainty, I want to stick to the principles of justice, freedom and dignity. Those ideals must be realized by a people. External powers pursue their own interests, they don’t act out of solidarity. Why is the West not protecting the people in Gaza or in Bahrain?

The European: I agree with you that there is much hypocrisy in Western rhetoric about the Libyan intervention. But I also believe that the question is more complex than a reduction to neo-colonialism might suggest. Even in the West, people are deeply divided over the right course of action.
El Saadawi: Yes, the situation is complex. But I am 80 years old, I have seen much protest in my life. I believe that it is up to the people of Libya to achieve their freedom. We are living in a jungle, we are not living in a humane world. The globe is dominated neo-colonialism, by military logic, by capitalism, by patriarchy. It is governed by power. Look at Iraq: if there had been no oil or strategic importance, the US would not have invaded the country. In a humane world, we would receive outside assistance – genuine humanitarian aid. But that is not happening. Money and power interests are masquerading as humanitarianism.

The European: When the story of this revolution is written, what are the lessons that will be preserved – positive and negative?
El Saadawi: Memory is never complete. I think that the hopeful lessons of this revolution will be preserved, because hope is power. I have dreamed of this for 70 years. No political power can stop change when it is so deeply embedded into the conscience of a people.